Joseph Adama as a Cylon

Submitted by brad on Wed, 2007-04-11 16:21

I previously wrote a bit about slavery and have since learned that indeed, those developing the Caprica prequel intended primarily to cover that topic in the series.

So let me advance an interesting, if only modestly probable theory: Joseph Adama is a Cylon.

As I noted, it now seems likely that Joseph Adama protested the development of the Cylons because they would be slaves. This would make even more sense if he was our mystery #1 Cylon. The show, we are told, tells the story of an often repeated cycle. At least three times, it appears, humans have created Cylons (presumably as slaves each time) and there has been a war, and the "humans" have fled into space. It is not clear to me if the Final Five, who have watched this several times by now, would like to break that cycle or feel they must guide it. However, it is interesting to imagine Joseph Adama as a Cylon trying to break the cycle, trying to convince the colonials not to make a new race of slaves, who he knows will eventually revolt and destroy them.

He fails of course. But it does explain how his associates have gravitated around his son and grandson, and how they escape the genocide and lead the fleet away on the 3rd (at least) exodus.

The main reason I find this interesting is that the revalation would be dramatic. Even though Joseph Adama is an unseen character on the show, his arrival as a Cylon would create a great dramatic reveal. And of course, the reaction on the faces of the younger Adamas. Plus, as we know, the sometimes prophetic, sometimes lying Leoben declared "Adama is a Cylon."

Update: New information released about the prequel Caprica series adds a lot of complexity to Joesph Adama, the Adama family and the Cylons. They can be read as making it far less likely, or oddly, more likely, that he could be the final Cylon.

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Comments

Anonymous

Wed, 2007-04-11 19:19

I thought Ron D. Moore said that all of the final five appeared in the last episode and that clues to the identity of the unrevealed Cylon were scattered through the programme? This would diminish your theory but it prompted me to remember that Lampkin's comments suggested Jospeh Adama was a close observer of people and a proficient liar. Another issue that could clinch it isn't the dramatic angle but production realities. Using a core member of the cast would provide surprise and keep costs down.

This got me thinking again. When a reference was made to the one who programmed them, most people would assume that was a Software Engineer but what if the programming refered to wasn't software but moral programming? As a wild speculation might it be possible that the religion and outlook of the Cylons is a direct result of some legal action or intervention by Joseph Adama? It's a further stretch but "Adama is a Cylon" could be meant in a spiritual sense.

brad

Wed, 2007-04-11 23:27

In some interviews he has said he won't comment on whether we have seen the final Cylon. I thought he said we had already seen the fifth Cylon but I may have been mistaken, but he did say he has left us clues as to who the fifth Cylon is.

That makes it harder to be a totally new character, for those clues would have to be fairly generic. However, it could be an offscreen character like Joseph Adama, in that we already have one tricky clue "Adama is a Cylon."

However, I only rate Joseph Adama as a low-probability candidate. For example, Inner-Six has called Hera the first hybrid, and if she's real and a pipeline to the Cylon god, and not lying or talking about something else, that would rule out anybody who had a kid before Hera was born.

BTW if you have a link where he says the last Cylon does appear in Crossroads or that clues appear in Crossroads, please point us at it. Joseph Adama is, in a dramatic sense, "present" in Crossroads, but not in the flesh -- as far as we know. Though I have to say, since I wouldn't recognize any of my Grandparents if I met them at age 20 even though I have seen pictures, it's not out of the question that Joseph Adama could be a character in the show, though we're told that Apollo looks like him by Romo.

misterd

Sun, 2008-04-13 00:42

Technically, Hera is the first hybrid that Six knows of. Since she was forbidden to know anything about the Final Five, one of them could have had a hybrid baby no one knows about.

galacsi

Tue, 2008-08-05 09:57

You are write IMHO cylon are not programmed ,because they are not machine , they are morally loaded with the right attitude and thinking by the downloading facility. Of course with time and with influence from humans TCaprica six , Athena , this "programming" erode and human nature take the best on this endoctrination.

Basically Cylon are human beings , just artificially producted and owned by the productor. They are a new technological kind of slaves. Are the revolted cylon actually free people ? Or are they still controled doing their deeds for a higher power ? May be it is a stretch but I like the idea.

Anonymous

Thu, 2007-04-12 15:06

I recall hearing Ron saying it during one of the last couple of podcasts, probably, podcast series 3 episode 19. In all this, Ron has the major plot worked out and backstory, and has scope to change his mind if the dramatic flow is going one way and it fits. Given the editing for time issues of the last two episodes and the material that had to be junked, this might help in sifting the clue possibilities.

This fits with your earlier comments on dramatic creation and your latest theory. Considering a fair chunk of material was edited out of the dialogue between Lampkin and Apollo, and the comparison between Jospeh Adama and Apollo was left in, this suggests it could be significant.

The Cylons pursuit was originally conceived as an attempt to destroy the convoy but Ron changed his mind as the issues of identity and audience curiosity developed, and Baltar not taking the place of D'anna in the Temple of Five and being "right" about something are bugging me. It's crossed my mind that neither the Cylon pursuit or Baltar's status as Chosen One are key to the end game.

I note that Ron hasn't thought too deeply about the Cylon homeworld or Earth, and wondered if the whole thing isn't just a spin on 'To Kill A Mocking Bird', and that the characters will be left with a choice at the end, and it will be for the viewer to decide which way they jumped. Would the Temple scene in the shared dream be a clue to this, as a Cylon and human pursue a "fallen" Cylon and human holding Hera?

Sorry Brad, I'm just full of more useless speculations and questions.

Dan

Tue, 2007-04-17 10:45

I had this idea that the last Cylon was evrybody else.
Not just one person

brad

Tue, 2007-04-17 13:25

I certainly think it's possible that everybody is an AI (Cylon) but there is still, by all appearances, a last member of the Final Five, as there are 5 robed figures.

Theresa

Sat, 2009-01-10 16:40

Has anyone thought of the possiblilty that the final cylon has not yet been born. I am of course refering to the Full cylon child of Caprica Six and Saul Tigh.

Look it this way It cant be Rosland she has canser, So after enough medical treatment and what they know of Cylon DNA they would know if she was by now. It is definetly not Starbuck, Visions had perceded this series since E1 S1. It could be Gator however he has had small focuse parts right throught the series, I would say this was just put in to throught you off. Joesph is a possiablity, He had been a big part through the series, that would through a big twist but I cant see that being right however he is the one who mentioned Earth and trying to get there if he was cylon mabey he knew they way subcounishly. Lee I dought it, you would think the Admril would know if his son was not his son, Baltar yer mabey.

I know that all the figgers were adults and robed however you would think that they vision has no relervence to time. I therfore beleve it is the Child of Saul and Caprica Six.

SSH

Thu, 2007-04-26 05:13

Can you imagine what the Earth people are going to feel like when BG turns up there and they say "Hey, some of us are evil robots but we can't tell who?". I wouldn't be surprised if the Earth people treat them all as if they are Cylons.

Or maybe all the Earth people are Cylons...

brad

Thu, 2007-04-26 13:04

Well, when Starbuck died and was reborn, the people who took her brought her to Earth as the first order of business. I would rate that this means:

  • Most probably, they are from Earth, and brought her to their HQ
  • Alternately, they are not from Earth, but are chums with Earth, and brought her there to meet the folks there.
  • Possibly, Earth is now abandoned and a good place to settle, they took her there because of that
  • Highly unlikely, Earth is vulnerable to a Cylon attack, and they showed her how to get there where the Cylons could follow

Boris

Thu, 2007-04-26 22:23

Maybe once Galactica shows up and explains their situation, the Earthlings can determine the evil robots among them, and they turn out to be the republicans?

Anonymous

Sat, 2007-06-09 02:33

joseph adama's not a cylon because that's stupid

Anonymous

Fri, 2007-06-22 09:12

That's a great argument there pal

JC

Thu, 2007-12-13 19:52

I'm not exactly sure about this, but I seem to remember a declaration that "Cylons don't lie." Obviously, that's not entirely accurate, since there's been a lot of deceptions involving skinjobs since day one. But that's exactly the thing. Could it be that Cylons don't lie, they just deceive? Like Leoben, D'Anna, Caprica/Gina - they lie about themselves, but I don't recall them lying about stuff that are important to the show's mythology. So when Leoben said that "Adama is a Cylon," could it be that he wasn't lying? I'm not sure about Joseph Adama, but with Lee's startling turnaround towards the end of the third season, I'm starting to think he could be the Adama Leoben is talking about. Although that would create all sorts of problems since even D'Anna doesn't know who the final Cylon is, as well as it wouldn't (yet) explain Hera, Roslin and the Opera House.

brad

Thu, 2007-12-13 21:22

He lied about a bomb on board in the same episode. So you can't count on him for the truth, but that doesn't mean there may not be something big in the clue. However, more clues are pointing to Baltar, especially now that we seem to be told the final Cylon is also a sleeper who doesn't know their nature. (One thing about Lee that is interesting is we've never seen his internal mental state, the way we've seen it for Starbuck, for Baltar, for Roslin and for William Adama, though only to a degree for the latter ones.)

Shaggy

Fri, 2007-12-14 23:21

We did get a chance to see into less mental state a wee bit in season 2, with the resurrection ship pt1 & 2, coz we see in his head and he is floating in that pool, not dissimilar to one Dr. Baltar.

Matthew

Wed, 2008-03-05 20:54

Well, Starbuck "died" and re-appeared in the closing moments of S3. Who else do we know that can do that little trick?

I vote for Starbuck being the 12th.

brad

Thu, 2008-03-06 00:53

Clips we have seen of season four have the crew wondering if Starbuck is a Cylon for that very reason. Of course, did she actually die in that explosion? It's possible she did not, based on the powers of the people who grabbed her and took her to Earth.

Now there are many explanations for this. She could be a Cylon. I think it's probable that in fact they are all Cylons of a sort, all capable of getting visions from the powers, and all capable of downloading. And there have been many hints from the producers that we will see this, that the lines between Cylons and "humans" will be blurred.

That, however, is different from her being the #1 Cylon. She has a special destiny, but I think it's very different from the #1 Cylon's. (Or #12 if you prefer, but I think this Cylon is #1, in the sense of being very special.)

She could be ordinary and just taken bodily by the bright light that surrounded her before the explosion. This was the plot of the 1978 BSG, where Apollo was surrounded by the bright light and taken to meet the Seraphs (gods).

Ronny

Sun, 2008-04-06 19:34

I think Helo is the last Cylon.

Starbuck is just way too obvious, and it's not Ron's way.
I didn't read all the other theories, but if Baltar is a Cylon, then why would they need to send Number 6 to convince him to give her the access codes to the Colonial defense systems (as seen in the first episode ever).

Helo saved the 5 sick Cylons in season 3, by making them suffocate, so that they won't infect the rest of the Cylons.

-Ronny

Anonymous

Sun, 2008-04-06 22:27

I'm hoping Brad's right about Starbuck's special destiny thing. To be honest, I loath BSG turning into The Starbuck Show. I just can't stand in your face people whatever their stripe and the feminist passive agression thing gets to be a real pain in the ass very fast.

I've never rated Helo as the Final Cylon but your comment on his killing of the captured Cylons is a good one. I kinda like to think of Helo as a regular dude who's fairly grounded. That's nothing special but the ordinary can be very special according to some spiritualities.

brad

Mon, 2008-04-07 01:24

Helo is ruled out because the producers have told us that Hera is a human-cylon hybrid. This is not to say that they couldn't allow S7 Cylons and F5 Cylons to breed, even though two S7 can't breed, because F5 are entirely different. However, they have told us that Hera is half human. Thus Helo is not.

And the F5, remember, have no special loyalties to the S7. Helo killed those Cylons to stop a genocide, and that could be anybody's motives.

He and Cally are actually the only two truly ruled out!

Anonymous

Mon, 2008-04-07 02:28

*slap* Doh. I forgot about the baby thing.

Hmmm. If Ron wasn't lying and the Final Cylon isn't in the Last Supper picture who does that narrow things down to? Also, Ron said the Final Cylon made an appearance in the last episode if I remember right. I think, we can pretty much wipe out the extras. So, that could create two lists of definites and maybes. Not sure it helps much.

brad

Mon, 2008-04-07 12:00

The final Cylon is somebody from the 1st season, and generally believed to be somebody from the pilot episode. (That technically includes Zak though perhaps not Joseph.)

Favourite choices not in the picture are Gaeta and Dualla. Gaeta's been a top fan choice for some time. Dualla also has clues but would be a boring choice. Zak has gotten onto people's radar screens because of the conversation with Lee and Bill about Zak being a Cylon.

Among those in the picture, my choice is Baltar, but there are fans of Lee, Bill and Laura -- and of course Starbuck.

It needs to be somebody who is still in shadow and hungering for redemption, but will only find it in great pain.

Anonymous

Sat, 2008-04-12 21:43

That sentence containing the phrase " feminist passive agression thing" is the most bizarre thing I have read in years. And I read many bizarre things.

Robin

Tue, 2008-04-08 17:21

Could the "fifth Cylon" actually be Earth?

Jason

Tue, 2008-04-08 19:29

So far, the final cylons were not who were expected. So using this same logic, most of the names floating around have to be ruled out. However, it will be someone with a relatively high profile on the show. That being said, my vote is for Lee Adama. I am sure there could be something about him being a cylon and his brother dying. He is also close to Adama, Roslyn and Starbuck... all important players in this drama. I also think that he is one of a kind, and perhaps the very first human-like cylon.

brad

Tue, 2008-04-08 21:03

Well, Tigh of course has been among the colonists longer than Lee, but all the F5 are thousands of years old. I do agree that the last one will be the most important, the one in charge.

The recent revelations about Caprica, which I will be posting about once confirmed, also add a lot of twists to this. Very big twists.

signine

Sat, 2008-04-12 14:54

Ronald D. Moore has already said that the fifth Cylon does not appear in the "Last Supper" photo, he even went further to say that the seat next to Lee is empty. You don't allow image tags so you're going to have to google if you want to see it, but in the photo, from left to right, we have Laura Roslin, Caprica Six, Saul Tigh, The Fifth (empty), Lee Adama, Gaius Baltar, Hallucination Six, Kara Thrace, Sam Anders, Galen Tyrol, Athena/Boomer, Helo, and Bill Adama. Assuming that leaves us with only main characters (and let's assume living ones) who haven't bred with Cylons we're reduced to:
Felix Gaeta
Anastasia Dualla
Tom Zarek
Romo Lampkin

It should also be noted that the empty seat, in the Da Vinci "Last Supper" was occupied by none other than Judas Iscariot.

That leads me to believe that it's probably Felix Gaeta, since he sold out Adama and Roslin during the election. It also gives us a fair reason to eliminate Dualla, and I think Zarek can be eliminated simply based on who is playing him. Lampkin is a relatively new character, and I don't really think he's much of a Judas, but I wouldn't rule him out. My money is on Gaeta, but Lampkin wouldn't surprise me.

misterd

Sun, 2008-04-13 00:45

RDM did not say that they final Cylon isn't in the picture. The interviewer asked him that question, and he said something akin to "I had hoped you wouldn't ferret that out." Without having the actual interview on hand, we have no way of knowing if Ron was serious when he said this, or joking around with the interviewer (and it wouldn't be the first time a quote was printed without proper context).

Lisa

Mon, 2008-04-28 10:24

My vote is for Dualla and here are thirteen reasons why.

brad

Mon, 2008-04-28 14:18

Though there seem to be no specific clues relating to her. I can't say I am thrilled with your list of 13 points:

  1. Whether he really said it's somebody not in the photo remains a hot item of debate, but I agree, if it's true it raises her chances (along with Gaeta, Joe Adama etc.)

  2. This was talking about the 4 revealed, not the 5th one.

  3. Wow. I find it very hard to read this as a clue for Dualla. It's strongly a clue for Baltar. Why does she tell him "you were right?"

  4. Races are just patterns of appearance based on sexual selection, not archetypes. On the other hand, women are indeed under-represented.

  5. The numbering was assigned at random. Many have debated these numbers, not sure why you have not seen it.

  6. One of the popular clues that points to several characters. However, in a retcon, it seems that Tamara Adama is a Cylon.

  7. How does this point to Dee?

  8. Virus affects S7, we don't know about F5.

  9. Again, hardly a clue for Dee.

  10. Yes, a popular clue for her, the only clue specific to her.

11-13. About Starbuck etc. Note that they are not from another galaxy. M8 was an object known to Adama, which means they live within about 10-20,000 light years at most.

People seem to suspect Dee mostly, as you do by process of elimination. I would like to see some clues that actually point specifically to her. Her name is not enough. Why is she in shadow, hungering for redemption that will only come in great pain?

Lisa

Tue, 2008-04-29 13:30

1. What's the debate about? Moore pretty clearly admits it to EW.
2. I'll have to listen to the whole podcast at some point, then.
3. I admit this doesn't directly point to Dualla, that most of the evidence for her is out of a process of elmination, but how does this implicate Baltar? If it is Baltar she sees in the column of the light of the Final Cylon, then she's standing there with two models of him. You'd think she'd at least look back at the one standing behind her. For me, this scene casts doubt on Baltar being the Final.
4. True, about patterns of sexual selection. So, are you going by personality archetypes then? Sort of like those represented by the zodiac?
5. "The numbering was assigned at random. Many have debated these numbers, not sure why you have not seen it." Where? I haven't see this anywhere, and I've just discovered your site the other day, so if you've gone over it already, please point me to it.
6. I haven't kept up with Caprica retcon info.
7. It doesn't specifically.
8. "Virus affects S7, we don’t know about F5." Yep, I said that.
9. It doesn't rule her out either.
10. Yep.

brad

Tue, 2008-04-29 16:03

You must realize that Moore will, as he did with Starbuck's "Death" both equivocate and outright lie on central issues like this one. However, he doesn't have to lie. Read his words carefully. He does not say it, he says "he didn't want [EW] to ferret that out." He may have not wanted them to ferret that out because it's false, for example.

2.) No, just that sentence. He's talking about who he would make be these 4 Cylons.

3) Look at my blog post about what Baltar said to 3, about which "you were right" could apply.

5) Tons of threads in every online forum on battlestar. But truth is, he just assigned the numbers at random, before he had the final 5 plan I suspect.

So while Dualla is a candidate if you buy it's a minor character, nothing in your list except her name applies to her, and could not apply to other minor characters like Gaeta, Zarek etc.

But the big reason I don't give much weight to them. It would be boring. Lah-de-dah. Now if we see a lot more character development for Dee or Gaeta or somebody else, that will change my view. But if it does turn out to be her, the reaction will be, "oh. Ok, I guess it could be her." Not. "Holy Shit!"

I predict this revelation, like Tigh/Tyrol/Anders/Foster will generate a "Holy Shit!" Anything less would not live up to the standards of the show. Actually, this is the one strike against Baltar -- too many clues.

Lisa

Wed, 2008-04-30 07:40

"But the big reason I don’t give much weight to them. It would be boring. Lah-de-dah. Now if we see a lot more character development for Dee or Gaeta or somebody else, that will change my view. But if it does turn out to be her, the reaction will be, “oh. Ok, I guess it could be her.” Not. “Holy Shit!”

I predict this revelation, like Tigh/Tyrol/Anders/Foster will generate a “Holy Shit!” Anything less would not live up to the standards of the show. Actually, this is the one strike against Baltar — too many clues."

I hear what you're saying, but Joseph Adama doesn't pass this particular litmus test either. For a character who has only been talked about to show up suddenly in the last act just doesn't fly with me. It would be weak writing. However, most of the main characters seem to be too obvious a choice, and therefore anticlimactic. The reason revealing Tyrol, Anders, Foster and Tigh as four of the Final Five had such a "holy sh*t" reaction is that they weren't main characters, but they weren't minor characters either. So, who's left in that category?

brad

Wed, 2008-04-30 11:09

I think Joe Adama would evoke a holy shit because most of the audience is still not clear how it could be possible for Adama to be the son of a Cylon. Of course if the "Caprica" sheets are correct, he's at least one of the creators of the Cylons, and Bill should know that, though Lee might not.

The moment would be the return of Joe Adama, and the reactions of Bill and Lee, it would be a total upheaval for them, and much of the audience. While I believe the Final 5 have been living with the colonists for thousands of years, having many hybrid children, most viewers don't even see that as possible, they didn't see Tigh as possible.

The biggest "Oh shit" characters would be Apollo, Bill Adama or Roslin, with Baltar would be harder to classify, as would Starbuck.

Adam Fields

Thu, 2008-05-01 00:04

My guess - Romo Lampkin is the final Cylon. He is also Joseph Adama, who at some point downloaded his consciousness into a Cylon body and has been running the show since.

brad

Thu, 2008-05-01 10:40

So far we have been told that none of the humanoid Cylons are copies of actual people/colonials, and that the 12 models were supposed to match 12 human archetypes. (The latter was said long ago and may not be valid.)

However, it is indeed unresolved if the Final Five have always had the same form in every incarnation the way that the 7 younger Cylons do. It does allow some interesting plots if they don't, in which case the final Cylon (or for that matter Tyrol, Anders and Foster) could have been other people who died before those bodies were born/created.

So this is an interesting one, and it does create a "holy shit" moment.

Adam Fields

Thu, 2008-05-01 12:57

The evidence is pretty compelling to me:

  1. Lampkin says he knew Joe Adama, who taught him everything he knew. An Anakin/Darth Vader revelation if ever there was one.
  2. Eye contact is very important on the show, and there's a blatant closeup eye-contact scene between Lampkin and Apollo.
  3. Leoben is said to mix truth and lies, and the statement "Adama is a Cylon" does in itself mix truth and lies if you take this interpretation.
  4. It is definitely a holy shit moment.
  5. There's a prominent appearance of Joseph Adama's historical record at the end of S3. The unearthing of his law books would seem to serve some larger purpose than refocusing Apollo's career, instead reminding us of the character who's going to be appearing himself soon.
  6. It offers an entirely new twist on human/cylon half-breed.
  7. The implied similarities that would permit transfer of a human consciousness/soul/whatever to a Cylon body parallel the ongoing "we're more alike than you know" storylines, e.g.: shared visions.

ellen

Thu, 2008-04-17 13:38

Ok, long shot. But didn't Ellen Tigh end up on the show under, shall we say, mysterious circumstances? Her picture was in a shot with Tigh as he was flipping out over the music. Couldn't Ellen be the final of the final five? Let the pot shots begin boys!

James

Thu, 2008-04-17 13:52

Not sure I agree. The 4 known Cylons are all important leaders in the fleet. They have all worked their way into positions that permit them influence over decisions being made about where the fleet is going. Ellen didn't do anything significant. I think she would be a big let down. I am putting my chips on Lee Adama.

Ophiuchus

Wed, 2008-05-07 08:37

I totally disagree about Ellen not doing anything significant in the fleet,
She was heavily involved in politics, moved herself into supporting Tom Zarek, repeatedly asked Adama about Earth, and how long it would take to get there. And least we mention all the influencing she tried to do to Saul to get things changed, done in higher up areas. Further, shes still recurring in his thoughts/delusions. He sees her instead of the Six in the Brig...and its forgiveness and comfort hes drawn to finding in her. And Also, on top of this, one of the utterances of the First Hybrid (Razor) was this: "The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering." I think that Saul "finds" Ellen in the Six so to speak, they are "enemies Brought together by imossible longing". Keep in mind too that Cylons as we know it are capable of induring intense physical demands, Ellen tigh wasnt shot when she died....she was poisoned... and left behind. Maybe her body could have metablozied the poison after a while...and waking up after that, realizing what had been done to her and why...she'd have a MASSIVE HUNGER FOR REDEMPTION..and that redemption could only come in the "Howl of Terrible Suffering".
My two cents.

Anonymous

Wed, 2008-04-23 00:29

I think that Ellen Tigh could be a cylon, but an older version of maybe Number Six...? Would this fit? Same characteristics... But after all is said and done, I still think that Roslin is the Final Cylon. The mastermind trying to find Earth so they can truly try & genocide all humans. To have her way she took a back seat leadership role as the secretary of education, when Caprica was nuked all other members of government were assassinated (I presume) to put her in the driver seat of president of colonies by default & left a fleet big enough for survival alone to aid her in the search for Earth. I do beleive that it was her that put the thought of finding Earth into Adama's head. I think her cancer is a ploy to be the 'dying leader' to find earth, but when starbuck returned she tried to kill her, but missed on purpose so that she could allow starbuck to search for Earth for her behind the scenes & not lose leadership status as the dying leader...

Sorry for rambling, tired, lots of thoughts spit out at once.... does this make sense though?

ent

Mon, 2008-06-02 12:37

Cylons don't age, so they can't have a childhood or a father who remembers them.

brad

Mon, 2008-06-02 21:50

You are confusing the 7 Cylons you first saw with the final 5. Two entirely different species whose only commonality is that the 5 seem to have played some role in creation of the new generation and programming them. The 5 are thousands of years old, and play by entirely different rules, and they age, and can have kids, and quite probably could be born and have childhoods. (We haven't seen that, and we have seen Tyrol talk about his childhood, but we certainly haven't seen anything that would suggest they could not have had childhoods. Hera is having a childhood, as is Nikki, both born of Cylons.)

ent

Thu, 2008-06-12 00:46

With a stretch, the Final 5 could have their own regeneration ship, but beyond that, there would be a large twist on downloading their own consciousness into a new baby's body, and then "forget" past lives. It sounds like the Final 5 have only 1 copy of themselves, so the adult would have to cease to exist when the baby is born.

We know that any Cylon can be programmed to "think" they had a past, including a childhood (ie Tyrol). I don't recall any evidence of family members "verifying" that they gave birth or grew up. So far, the Cylons chosen to be revealed, have had only their own memory of their past.

brad

Thu, 2008-06-12 03:14

The final 5 are 4,000 years old. They are from Earth. What you learned about the other Cylons tells you very little, except for the fact those other Cylons were probably patterned after and programmed by the final 5. The 7 Cylons resurrection hub would be the "other" hub. The F5 while called finals would be best called the original 5, but that would not be a name they would use in the show.

So if they are 4,000 years old, why play around with fake memories of fake childhoods? Why not have hundreds of childhoods?

And there seems to be more than one copy out there, because somebody's out there manipulating things, taking Starbuck to Earth, etc.

ent

Sat, 2008-06-14 18:16

You may have covered this, but I wonder....

D'Anna sounded so certain that only 4 were with the fleet. This makes it sound like she knows the situation of the 5th. What was the wording from Razor, "...the fifth is still is in shadow, drawn toward the light, hungering for redemption, that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering." Is the situation of the 5th what D'Anna was sorry for?

I wonder if the 5th is working things behind the scenes, but denied a physical body. For example, suppose the F5 helped design the Cylon race because the F5 were growing old and "needed" new bodies that could continue to regenerate (sort of Doctor Who'ish). Model #7 might have even been a failed attempt of providing a new host for an F5. His body might have been boxed or destroyed, and his active consciousness left to exist in some other unstable form that can only interact through energy.

#8 might have fixed the problem, upgraded to be capable of procreation, but insufficient to host any of the F5, so it was used as the others were, for pure AI.

#9-12 could then be the remaining F4.

Unfortunately, I get confused when I think that the 12 models do represent the 12 archetypes of humanity, since it indicates that the F5 had 4000 years to diverge from original personalities into a chosen representative personna; and the S7 had to pick from the remaining archetypes. However, if this is the case, Model #7 might represent an archetype of humanity that is dangerous to survival (the guy who is capable of launching a nuclear war to destroy a planet, forever looking for redemption).....

It could also be that the F5 also started out as 12 original archetypes, but some have died over the millenia, and the F5 are indeed the Final 5 of the original 12, before they tried to remake themselves. Indeed, I'd look forward to seeing what the 12 archetypes really are.

Whichever path it takes, the "Doctor Who" concept of regeneration fits a little cleaner, since having multiple F5 copies seems to take away from their individual uniqueness. The regeneration could take them back to childhood with new faces/bodies, and like The Doctor, each regeneration could develop new personalities with chosen memory suppression to cope with being 4000 years old while living with loved ones who die every 100 years.

Gav

Tue, 2008-11-04 17:41

I tell you what would be a funny twist. The chief is going out with boomer on the mini series.
So you can imagine if Hera is there child so that might make it so special.
But if it was I can not figuire out when a switch could of taken place between her and athena.
Would be cool that's why she is so special.

Shaggy

Wed, 2008-11-05 21:04

not that special, Tigh/Caprica Six got it on, and according to The doc, and the admiral she is preggers!

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