Surviving a robot uprising

Submitted by brad on Wed, 2009-02-25 14:22

There's been a subtext this season about the Centurions. It makes me wonder if they are not going to play a more than background role in the ending.

  • The first Cylon war was in response to slavery.
  • The Centurions taught monotheism to the final five. (Though the Caprica story reveals they got it from a human priestess on Caprica.)
  • They cut a deal with the final five to make biological cylons, but later those made Cylons betrayed the five and enslaved and modified the Centurions.
  • Their slavery was perhaps even more extreme than that done by humans. They were aware but inhibited.
  • Cavil was really, really upset ("Say, what?!!!") to learn that Natalie had removed the inhibitors from the centurions. He tells them twice they have "no idea" what they have unleashed. This sets off my dramatic foreshadowing alarm.
  • Indeed, they are quite happy to put bullets into Cavil, Simon and Doral once they are freed. And an Eight while she is disconnecting the hybrid.
  • Baltar has that little tête-à-tête with a freed Centurion on the base star just before he is injured. Not sure what it means, but it means something.
  • We have learned that the 13th colony was destroyed because, even though they were Cylons themselves, they built Centurions to be grunts and soldiers, and they rebelled.

The nature of the deal cut between the final five and the early Centurions remains a mystery (and in some ways does not make sense.) We don't know if their memories were transferred into any of the 8 models or not, and if not, why they wanted to make such a deal. But we do know Cavil rails against "the humans who enslaved us" though he has enslaved the Centurions even more.

Since Cavil is responsible for so much -- killing and boxing the five, killing Daniel, reprogramming the other 6 to forget their creators and of course being the prime mover in the genocide of humanity, there are lots of characters who are candidates to give him what for, if he gets given what for. (In a standard TV drama, this would be 100% certain, but this is not a standard drama and the ending is said to be darker than you would expect.)

But the irony level would be particularly high if the Centurions get to do the job. But it seems they may get to be more than background characters. The main counter argument is the fact there is a lot to resolve in just a few episodes. Will they regain the power to speak that their predecessors had? So they can give a sarcastic "by your command?"

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Comments

Coolmoose

Wed, 2009-02-25 15:30

I'm assuming you've picked up on stuff that I haven't... but here are some quibbles with your statements...

- You've said many times that the Cylons had adopted a monotheistic religion and that the 5 were *converted* to it... I'm not sure the *converted* part is clear. Did the shows say that specifically... I acknowledge that Ellen says that it makes all the difference, but does that necessarily mean that she was *converted* from polytheism to monotheism at that point? Is it possible she was already a monotheist?

- Do we know yet *why* the thirteenth colony was destroyed? We know that the 5 had some pre-knowledge of it. But do we know that the Cylons rebelled? Isn't it still possible that the holocaust there was either from outside, or that it might not by a mech Cylon rebellion, but just a holocaust for some other political reason. Could there have been a cold war that got hot?

One other thing to add to your list is that after the Centurians shot up the Cavils & Company, they were cleaning up the blood... A six asked them to clean it up and the Centurian looked at her... She then added "Please"... and he went back to cleaning.

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-02-25 15:44

I agree that the monotheism being taught to the Final Five is a stretch. Monotheism is what led Ellen to believe something was different this time. No one said anything about the Final Five not being monotheistic on Earth.

brad

Wed, 2009-02-25 16:29

Jane Espenson, in the interview that broke my heart outlines these bits of information. Yes, I was surprised to learn the 13th tribe was all polytheist.

Amusingly she calls them "battlebots." This suggests, by the way, that the 13th tribe had civil war brewing anyway, if it built battlebots. (By which I hope she doesn't mean robot fights for sport, like the battlebots TV show.)

Alvin

Wed, 2009-02-25 17:15

At this point, it just sounds like she has no idea about the show. She sounds like a non-fan trying to talk about a show she's seen once. I don't believe anything she says anymore. It could be true, but i'll wait and see for myself.

brad

Wed, 2009-02-25 17:27

She managed the script for No Exit and was the writer for Deadlock. She is credited as co-executive producer, along with Moore and Eick. She's the show runner for Caprica?

How can she possibly not know?

Anonymous

Wed, 2009-02-25 17:47

Maybe her way of not giving away the truth is to lie about it. Maybe she was being sarcastic. Maybe she just knows the story better than us and all will be revealed in due course.

mrd

Wed, 2009-02-25 19:47

Doesn't have to know much despite her title.

Most of what is going to play out on Galactica won't factor into Caprica, and few of her writing gigs dealt directly with the show's early mythology.

As co-executive producer, her primary job is going to be running the writers room, maybe handing out assignments, likely doing rewrites and polishes, but she is not going to be the one responsible for the actual content.

Alvin

Wed, 2009-02-25 19:30

I didn't say she didn't know, just that she sounds like she doesn't. If she's referring to cylons as 'battlebots' and isn't being facetious, than I think we have every reason to doubt the veracity of her other statements. Not to say that she's lying, but that we cannot take her comments at face value and we shouldn't accept them as 100% accurate and/or infer any literal meaning.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 02:19

I've heard of teachers that hated children. Maybe Espensen is a writer who hates the audience. You get people like that in politics and religion. They're just wired wrong. As the earlier comment said, she has a mechanical view of plot development and doesn't seem to be paying attention. She might hate the fans because they're the "wrong audience" but she's too old to change or get another job. I've known a couple of social housing officers like that. Funnily enough, like the teachers and church woman they were both women. Mummy knows best genes gone wrong, I guess. Maybe it's a form of abuse that's peculiar to women like sex offences are largely a male thing?

Alvin

Thu, 2009-02-26 04:42

She could just hate the the show (or be indifferent as to its content) and not give a flying crap about interviews. I've heard of plenty of writers who say they hated some of their gigs, Ron Moore included.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 06:38

Hmmm, it could explain why she wrote out of tune with narrative and character, and sounded a bit odd from the interview transcript. On the flipside, other people have agendas and keep trying to sneak that into the creative content. Sometimes it's just more obvious than others.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 07:50

This is such a stupid line of thought. First off, Espenson is heading Caprica because of her high level of involvement and DEDICATION with BSG. Second, her are Moore are close friends. Third, according to every comment about this episode from the production staff (before the show even aired to get mixed reviews from fans) this episode was left almost untouched after it was written. This episode was planned out well in advance, and planned so well as to have minimal draft edits and to have almost no footage hit the cutting room floor. I would put a lot more stock in her being right and there being a major revelations left to be told than any of this garbage talk about her telling lies, or not caring. Yeah, she doesn't care so much she didn't tell her really close friend that she isn't the person to be the SHOWRUNNER for Caprica. Pass over whatever y'all are smoking, cuz that is the good shit.

Lisa

Thu, 2009-02-26 07:56

Good points. Espenson's particular forte is writing dark humor. The bit with Baltar and headSix was very much in her style of writing. This dark humor also was a trademark of Buffy and Angel. Espenson's "battlebots" remark was just her joking around. Why are so many so quick to assume the worst?

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 09:04

Okay, so Espensen's a control freak with an autistic sense of humour.

At least my expectations are low for Caprica before we start instead of the bait and switch they pulled with Star Trek: Voyager.

Jeri Taylor. *shudder*

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 09:10

Dude. It's just a TV show.

Alvin

Thu, 2009-02-26 21:01

Regardless, I still don't put any stock into creator comments. They all have their agendas, and ideas can change. Additionally, there's nothing that tells me she can't have misinterpreted the interviewer (is he talking about our Earth or Cylon Earth? are they the same? When she says humanity does she mean us, Koblians or are we one and the same?) and nothing that tells me we can't have misinterpreted her answers (she doesn't phrase anything in absolutes).

My point is simply not to take interviews or behind the scenes comments as gospel. Take them with a good dose of salt. Listen to them, let them enhance your enjoyment if you wish, but let the show itself answer the questions.

Lisa

Fri, 2009-02-27 07:48

My point is simply not to take interviews or behind the scenes comments as gospel. Take them with a good dose of salt. Listen to them, let them enhance your enjoyment if you wish, but let the show itself answer the questions.

Well said.

Coolmoose

Thu, 2009-02-26 06:59

I've read the commentary you linked to and I see why you've said those things now... She does indeed confirm both "facts"... and does so matter-of-factly... The only question left to answer is her reliability in those answers - whether she lied about them. To answer that, you'd have to know how important both of those items are to the eventual outcome. I think in the case of the source of the holocaust for the 13th tribe, it is natural to assume that their mech cylons revolted. What I don't understand is why they would nuke the whole planet. Presumably, that would make it uninhabitable to both. And if it didn't, why didn't we find a whole world filled with mech Cylons? Why would the mech cylons decide to use nukes? Why not just kill the skinjobs one by one... it's not like they need to nuke the planet to get rid of the skinjobs... I think there is more to this question than meets the eye...

As to the point about the polytheism, again, you have to ask what difference it makes. I find it hard to believe that the notions of monotheism were unknown to the 13th tribe, as if they were playing Civilization and hadn't yet *invented* monotheism. Surely someone somewhere posited the notion. What we are talking about here is what the dominant religion is and they are saying that it is polytheism. Then you have to consider why it would matter to Ellen that the 12 colony cylons practice monotheism. Why does that make such a difference to her? Is it just that Ellen is ditzy and sees significance where there isn't any? Or is it that she sees monotheism as the only hope for cylons/humanity, and thus with the cylons practicing it, better to give them their own skin jobs than to let them continue the war? And do we know how the war was going? The shots in the previews show the 1st war cylons similar in appearance to the ones from the original galactica series. If so, I can't believe how the colonials could have lost the war... silly in fact given how clunky those cylons were. Humans would ultimately win.

No, neither of these answers are satisfactory. And they are important questions - can't believe that they were left out of the episode... so I have to believe there is misdirection here... wouldn't be the first time the commentary was used to bring us down the wrong roads...

mrd

Wed, 2009-02-25 18:46

Or at least I highly doubt it after listening to RDM's commentaries for 4.0. He makes it clear that they had wanted to explore the Centurians and their independence more (hence the Baltar scene), but they realized they just had too many balls in the air and not enough time left for all of them, so that's the one they let drop.

brad

Wed, 2009-02-25 23:45

While BSG deals with the issue of AI slavery more than just about any other show has, I would have wanted to see more. Rumours are that Caprica will deal with it, but only in an ironic foreshadowing sense. Ie. every time we see the characters treating the new slaves badly, we will nod knowingly to ourselves and know it doesn't end well.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 02:36

Oh, great. So we get a really, really draggy first half of the series and the cost of that is a key part of the story that's been pimped since whenever? What was all that crap about the overall story arc, and planning out the final series? You can't blame that on the writers strike.

I'm already pissed over the Final Cylon cock tease, and if Caprica is going to be some painful dragging out of getting to punchline we already know, I'm not going to watch it. I've already quit listening to Ron's podcasts in protest, and I ain't gonna pay to see his movie "The Thing".

I'm not going to cut my nose of to spite my face but we need other shows and other producers. The studio took a risk with a historically dud show and Ron showed some brass neck in bidding for it. It's not as if the ideas aren't around or some new production talent can't be found.

Thaddeus P. Whi...

Wed, 2009-02-25 23:55

What happened to them? Where are they? They kill all but 5 skinjobs and then....what?

zach

Thu, 2009-02-26 01:19

Yeah, I have been wondering about that too. Where did they go after nuking "Earth"?
The didn't have FTL, so maybe they're out there somewhere, in their ships, traveling at subluminal speed, following the trail of F5.
Wouldn(t it be fun if they stopped by to say hello... ;)

Admiral von Snu...

Thu, 2009-02-26 11:43

But it will probably never get resolved. Most people don't even ask that question, much less the writers.

bad dog

Thu, 2009-02-26 02:39

am i the only person who can't stand the character of ellen and was severely depressed when she returned?

at first it was okay, but then we got the soap opera of last week's episode

she makes trouble when there should be no trouble in a show filled otherwise with very real, very powerful troubles

she's supposed to be the mother of the cylon race and she's a basket case, a tempest in a teapot

in my opinion she's degrading the ending of an incredible work of art

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 02:47

Next week Deirdre Barlow gets dumped by her latest fly by night boyfreind.

*camera freezes on shocked face*

Waaaah. Waaaah. Wah. Wahwah. Waaaaah.

I'll slit my wrists now...

Lisa

Thu, 2009-02-26 08:16

I'm not a big fan of Ellen either, and the main reason why I didn't peg her as the Fifth initially is that I'm just uninterested in her. Anti-heroes are difficult to write. The writers have done a great job with Baltar and Starbuck in that regard. Both have done unlikable things, but we're still fascinated by them. Ellen, OTOH, is just petty. The writers haven't shown us a compelling reason for her pettiness and so we don't know whether to root for her or against her.

Starbuck sabotages all of her relationships because she doesn't think she deserves to be happy and that makes us want to see her happy -- almost no matter what she does. Baltar is compelling because of his journey, but also because even though he's ultimately out for number one, he doesn't really want to be...sometimes. He's a mirror for the audience, just blown up to bigger proportions. Ellen, however, is just a floozy. At first I thought that they would show us that she's (and Saul) so dysfunctional because of what John Cavil did to her (them); that the booze was covering up the pain her subconscious couldn't articulate, but she's "ascended" now and her MO hasn't changed a bit. What it comes down to is a lack of audience emotional reaction to Ellen. If she were killed off in the next episode the audience reaction would be: "Meh. Now what about Starbuck? Why has Baltar been seeing people in his head all this time?"

Bad Dog

Thu, 2009-02-26 14:04

couldn't agree more, lisa

Josiah

Thu, 2009-02-26 08:14

Does anyone know why Deadlock is not available to watch on scifi.com?

Every other episode since the return of the show is available within 24 hours of airing on television.

Except Deadlock.

And there's no reason or explanation, like they wait a week or something.

I had hoped the issue would resolve itself, and I'm going nuts trying to avoid spoilers.

Help!

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 09:33

The explanation was given at the beginning of season 4.5. All episodes starting at Deadlock will be released on the net 8 days after the release on TV to coincide with something going on at Hulu.com. Just watch it on one of the Chinese websites, or youtube.

Josiah

Thu, 2009-02-26 12:35

Thanks for the tip. I must have missed the announcement.

Apologies for using this space for something so mundane.

And terrible move, in my opinion, to limit web access to already viewed episodes like that. I rely on websites for just about every show I follow closely these days, given an unpredictable schedule and the fact that I do not own a DVR or Tivo.

Alvin

Fri, 2009-02-27 16:27

They're also available on itunes for 1.99 (standard) or 2.99 (hidef). That's how I watched season 3 when I didn't have cable.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 08:22

It's a giant conspiracy! Quick, to the TiVos! Let's play all of Starbuck's dialogue backwards to see if there's super secret message about her true nature.

The Answer

Thu, 2009-02-26 10:35

"""Since Cavil is responsible for so much — killing and boxing the Five,
killing Daniel, reprogramming the other 6 to forget their creators
and OF COURSE BEING THE PRIME MOVER IN THE GENOCIDE OF HUMANITY..."""

I couldn't disagree more, what you said in the last line Brad.

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that 3s could be manipulated by Ones or any Other Models.

Number 3s were the Most Dominant Model and pretty much ruled the others. That's a Fact we got, from season 3 episodes.

So The PRIME MOVER of The Attack to The Colonies were MOSTL LIKELY NUMBER 3S, not 1s.

--> Mainly 3s (kind of Ruler model) and then 5s (Most militarist model) were the PRIME MOVERS of The Attack on 12 Colonies.

At least this is the conclusion I got, based on their characters we saw.

I believe that 3s decided and convinced the others to "War on Humanity". And 5s organized the attack.

1s (Galactica), 2s (Ragnar), 6s (Caprica) and 8s (Galactica) were kinda Field Agents. Nothing more or less.

My point is ; just don't give 1s credit for, more than they deserved.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 10:46

Everyone still assumes there is no religious element to all this. I am sure there is going to be something left to god or the gods as an explanation. I don't think Ellen was lying when she said they had nothing to do with changing the Temple of Hopes/Five. There is another force out there, or many forces out there, influencing events. Very greek god like.

The Answer

Thu, 2009-02-26 13:44

Yes there must be The 13th God / The One True God that pulls some strings, controlls some events.

Besides there is no reason for Ellen to lie about Temple of Five at that point.

Man7do

Thu, 2009-02-26 12:35

I have to disagree on your statement here, Cavil knew enough to destroy the 7's. they were able to 'box' all the 3's. Cavil killed the final five, boxed them and then resurrectede them with altered memories... No Cavil is the moving and shaker when it comes to the skinjob colonial cylons, and the destruction of the colonies... now there is no doubt someone else out there making the puppets dance... that's who i wonder about

The Answer

Thu, 2009-02-26 18:14

""I have to disagree on your statement here, Cavil knew enough to destroy the 7's. THEY WERE ABLE TO BOX ALL THE 3'S""

Yes, 1s were the executioner of the Final Decision, I mean the boxing process of the 3s line. That part is true.

But that doesn't mean, **1s did it because they alone wanted to do so**

No. Cavills DID NOT get that determination only by themselves. Voting was AN OBLIGATION back then.

1s were able to box 3s,

because THE MAJORITY (At least 4 models -> 2s, 6s, 8s and 1s in 3x12 Rapture) voted against Dianna.

If the VOTING would result the other way around, Cavills could NEVER BOX them. That simple.

So please, don't use this "boxing" argument, to support 1s *dominance* over 3s.

Because that's not "entirely" true.

brad

Thu, 2009-02-26 13:34

While the #3 character was strong, her obsession was finding out about her origins and the final five. Knowledge that Cavil erased from her brain. She was a puppet and he set it all up.

The 7 Cylons were raised by 5 people who had flown for 2,000 years to prevent man-machine war. They tried to do it by getting machines to be more human, and relying on the machine belief in a loving god. Cavil erased their memories of that upbringing, and later we see them declaring that it's gods will that they kill their creators. Even though it is the final 5, not the humans, who are their true creators.

Coolmoose

Thu, 2009-02-26 14:50

I have nowhere else to post this here, but I wanted to share some off the wall thoughts and get people's reaction to them...

The dying leader... "And the lords anointed a leader to guide the Caravan of the Heavens to their new homeland." and "She also wrote that the new leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land." and "The scriptures tell us a dying leader lead humanity to the promised land."

We've all assumed it's Roslyn... some have said maybe it's Adama... Anybody think it might be Galactica itself? If you read the lines above, the "anointed leader" could be Galactica - she's clearly the lead ship in the Caravan of the Heavens...

This "leader" now clearly suffers from a wasting disease - if you took the metaphor to it's logical conclusion, the cracks in the hull and structure are a human equivalent of bone cancer...

And the notion that the dying leader leading humanity to the promised land is clearly true, assuming they get there... I could picture Galactica making that final jump, and just coming apart at the seams at the end...

What a picture it would be - the ship flashes into Earth orbit and immediately begins breaking up. People pile into Raptors and Vipers, and maybe even lifeboats - they must have them - as the ship breaks apart...

Imagine the ship's pieces falling into the atmosphere of the "promised land" and burning up as the enter it...

This would allow Roslyn to survive and actually reach it... It would mean that whatever promised land they reach, they have no Battlestar to defend it...

If you wanted a dark ending, you could even decide that Cavil & Co. come in just at that moment, and essentially enslave humanity on the Promised Land... They said the ending was dark... With no battlestar, humanity has no hope of defending itself... remember that when they rebelled and left New Caprica, it came at the cost of one battlestar, and now, in hindsight, the severely cripling of the other. Can't think of anything more dark short of having them all get run over by a bus.

Regardless, I'm not really saying this is true or will play out... just an idea that was rattling around in my head...

brad

Thu, 2009-02-26 15:23

Yup, I don't think a day goes by on various message boards without somebody suggesting this. It does not mesh very well with the leader being given a vision of serpents 2 and 10, the way Roslin got. But it's a popular theory right now. Adama, with his pills, is also making people think it's him but RDM has denied it.

As for Galactica, it does seem doomed.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 16:00

I think it is safe to say Adama is committing suicide with the booze and pills because he knows Roslin is on her last legs and as has said before, he just can't live without her at this point. If it was something you could bet on in LV, I would have a large chunk of money on Adama essentially pulling a Pegasus maneuver, only he isn't escaping.

Alvin

Thu, 2009-02-26 17:54

You know, I think he started popping pills around the time that Tigh was outed as a Cylon. I always just took it to be painkillers, tylenol even, for the stress and headaches. Has there been any indication that it's anything more than that?

I do however, think Galactica's fate will be a big part of the stories resolution. Not sure how it will tie in-- it could be something as simple as allowing the ship to take on a basestar and be more evenly matched, I don't know.

Anonymous

Thu, 2009-02-26 18:11

He started taking them after he slammed his fist through the mirror. They were prescribed for the pain by Cottle. The wound is long gone though.

Alvin

Thu, 2009-02-26 19:08

Sounds like painkiller addiction. I feel like it's more of a literary device to illustrate his weakness and emotional distress, more than anything else.

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