-More efficient use of scarce battery supplies. One EV with 300 mile range uses the same amount of batteries as 10 PHEV with 30 mile range.
-More reduction in gasoline used. One EV and 9 ICE vehicles uses 18 times as much gas as 10 PHEV (based on PHEV using only 5% as much gas as an ICE).
-Range anxiety for PHEV does not exist.
-Infrastructure for PHEV costs far less because you have no range anxiety.
If you can plug in a vacumn cleaner you can plug in a PHEV.
If you have electric lights in a parking lot, you are 99% of the way to providing electric power for a PHEV.
People in apartments would love a place to plug in a PHEV.
Employers could provide PHEV outlets for a very low cost, doubling the daily range.
PHEV are useful, but you end up having a car with two power trains, one electric, one gasoline, with the cost and maintenance of both. BEVs have almost no maintenance.
This argument falsely imagines that we are short of battery materials. We are not, in fact the price of Lithium is collapsing and more supplies keep getting found. So it isn't a choice of 10 PHEV vs. One EV and 9 ICE. It's 10 BEV vs. 10 PHEV.
I would be interested in seeing how much gasoline PHEV owners use in real life, as opposed to in theory. Do they plug in enough?
Note that BEVs can do fine with level 1 charging at home/work, but it takes people some time to figure that out. They insist it can't be true until they try it and for most people, it's true.
Good point, I do not think about people plugging in a Tesla to level 1 charging. That is probably what you do.
There must be some battery scarcity issues, an ICE Mustang costs $31,000 while a BEV Mustang costs $43,000.
It would be interesting to see how much gasoline PHEV owners use, I imagine it is all over the place. My number was from personal use, 30 mile one way commute, employer who allowed level 1 charging. Huge reduction in gasoline used.
Yes, batteries currently cost more, but the savings on energy usually more than compensate making BEV cheaper than ICE. It's possible for a PHEV to be a bit cheaper than BEV, I suspect, but that will change with time as BEV gets cheaper, but it is cheaper because you don't have to pay for the externalities of the gas you burn.
The win would be a BEV with perhaps 100-150 miles of range for which you can easily rent an extra battery pack to go on road trips. A PHEV is sort of that, but you buy the "extra pack" and it runs on gasoline.
The model 3 is quite a step up above the Prius or Corolla. Some would argue it doesn't quite qualify as a luxury car but it's got a lot of features in common, and certainly isn't an entry level car like the other 2. So you would want to try to match the car up.
The PHEV and ICE costs of course depend on how reliably you charge the PHEV, and on the cost of gasoline. Of course the EVs depend on cost of electricity. Then you would want to subtract resale value, or look at the full 20 year TCO.
My own experience doesn't match. You can get a model 3 now after credits for $34K, less in some states. I pay perhaps $500 for electricty, $600 for insurance, $450 for registration and nothing for maintenance other than tires which are perhaps $250/year. Since the $34K is for the whole car, not just 5 years of depreciation, I can't see this number matching.
Found an online calculator that supports your argument, https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
Driving 22,000 miles per year, after 13 years the cost of the Corolla would be more than the Model 3.
BTW, thanks for getting your "green" messages out to the wider Forbes audience, robocars are fun and exciting, but global warming is urgent and important.
Comments
Dave Brown
Mon, 2023-12-25 07:59
Permalink
PHEV
PHEV are superior to pure EV for a few reasons:
-More efficient use of scarce battery supplies. One EV with 300 mile range uses the same amount of batteries as 10 PHEV with 30 mile range.
-More reduction in gasoline used. One EV and 9 ICE vehicles uses 18 times as much gas as 10 PHEV (based on PHEV using only 5% as much gas as an ICE).
-Range anxiety for PHEV does not exist.
-Infrastructure for PHEV costs far less because you have no range anxiety.
If you can plug in a vacumn cleaner you can plug in a PHEV.
If you have electric lights in a parking lot, you are 99% of the way to providing electric power for a PHEV.
People in apartments would love a place to plug in a PHEV.
Employers could provide PHEV outlets for a very low cost, doubling the daily range.
brad
Mon, 2023-12-25 21:07
Permalink
Yes, but
PHEV are useful, but you end up having a car with two power trains, one electric, one gasoline, with the cost and maintenance of both. BEVs have almost no maintenance.
This argument falsely imagines that we are short of battery materials. We are not, in fact the price of Lithium is collapsing and more supplies keep getting found. So it isn't a choice of 10 PHEV vs. One EV and 9 ICE. It's 10 BEV vs. 10 PHEV.
I would be interested in seeing how much gasoline PHEV owners use in real life, as opposed to in theory. Do they plug in enough?
Note that BEVs can do fine with level 1 charging at home/work, but it takes people some time to figure that out. They insist it can't be true until they try it and for most people, it's true.
Dave Brown
Tue, 2023-12-26 06:14
Permalink
PHEV
Good point, I do not think about people plugging in a Tesla to level 1 charging. That is probably what you do.
There must be some battery scarcity issues, an ICE Mustang costs $31,000 while a BEV Mustang costs $43,000.
It would be interesting to see how much gasoline PHEV owners use, I imagine it is all over the place. My number was from personal use, 30 mile one way commute, employer who allowed level 1 charging. Huge reduction in gasoline used.
brad
Tue, 2023-12-26 09:28
Permalink
Battery cost
Yes, batteries currently cost more, but the savings on energy usually more than compensate making BEV cheaper than ICE. It's possible for a PHEV to be a bit cheaper than BEV, I suspect, but that will change with time as BEV gets cheaper, but it is cheaper because you don't have to pay for the externalities of the gas you burn.
The win would be a BEV with perhaps 100-150 miles of range for which you can easily rent an extra battery pack to go on road trips. A PHEV is sort of that, but you buy the "extra pack" and it runs on gasoline.
Dave Brown
Wed, 2023-12-27 07:11
Permalink
Costs
Do you know of a good online calculator for costs?
I have been using edmunds.com/tco, which show 5 year ownership costs (in my zip) as:
BEV Model 3 $49,191
PHEV Prius $39,404
ICE Corolla $36,393
brad
Thu, 2023-12-28 17:44
Permalink
Costs
The model 3 is quite a step up above the Prius or Corolla. Some would argue it doesn't quite qualify as a luxury car but it's got a lot of features in common, and certainly isn't an entry level car like the other 2. So you would want to try to match the car up.
The PHEV and ICE costs of course depend on how reliably you charge the PHEV, and on the cost of gasoline. Of course the EVs depend on cost of electricity. Then you would want to subtract resale value, or look at the full 20 year TCO.
My own experience doesn't match. You can get a model 3 now after credits for $34K, less in some states. I pay perhaps $500 for electricty, $600 for insurance, $450 for registration and nothing for maintenance other than tires which are perhaps $250/year. Since the $34K is for the whole car, not just 5 years of depreciation, I can't see this number matching.
Dave Brown
Wed, 2024-01-10 03:58
Permalink
Costs
Found an online calculator that supports your argument, https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/
Driving 22,000 miles per year, after 13 years the cost of the Corolla would be more than the Model 3.
BTW, thanks for getting your "green" messages out to the wider Forbes audience, robocars are fun and exciting, but global warming is urgent and important.
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